Comments on: One Man’s 25-Year Journey Collecting Japanese Ceramics http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics Get the Most from Your Antiques & Collectibles Thu, 23 May 2013 08:49:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Elise http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-134066 Elise Tue, 02 Oct 2012 05:54:39 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-134066 Awesome Japanese ceramics Photos, Diversity of Japanese Design is wonderful. Here, a gallery in Paris, which has nice japanese art pieces: <a href="www.facebook.com/yakimonos" rel="nofollow">Yakimono Art</a> Awesome Japanese ceramics Photos, Diversity of Japanese Design is wonderful.
Here, a gallery in Paris, which has nice japanese art pieces:
Yakimono Art

]]> By: Lelia Trones http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-55578 Lelia Trones Fri, 09 Sep 2011 17:18:26 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-55578 What an amazing collection! It was interesting to learn how John handles his collection and displays. What a wonderful opportunity to be in another country and to be able to search out many rare examples of their arts and crafts. http://leliasteaware.com What an amazing collection! It was interesting to learn how John handles his collection and displays. What a wonderful opportunity to be in another country and to be able to search out many rare examples of their arts and crafts. http://leliasteaware.com

]]> By: John http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-45788 John Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:31:26 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-45788 Hi Randy - Let me look at the piece on Gotheborg. John Hi Randy – Let me look at the piece on Gotheborg.
John

]]> By: randy mckinney http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-45771 randy mckinney Sun, 17 Apr 2011 00:51:13 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-45771 Dear Mr Worchr, I am in current negotiating discussions with the Keisei Isogaya Museum for a pair of Kutani Ichinichi Sei/ Ichi Hi Sei vases that are in mint condition. They are offering us 12,500 USD. From your extensive experience would you think that is a fair value? Item is listed under item 1401 of the 'gotheborg.com' web site under Kutani japanese markings. Any advice would greatly be appreciated. Sincerely, Randy McKinney Dear Mr Worchr,
I am in current negotiating discussions with the Keisei Isogaya Museum for a pair of Kutani Ichinichi Sei/ Ichi Hi Sei vases that are in mint condition. They are offering us 12,500 USD. From your extensive experience would you think that is a fair value? Item is listed under item 1401 of the ‘gotheborg.com’ web site under Kutani japanese markings. Any advice would greatly be appreciated. Sincerely, Randy McKinney

]]> By: Arno Jacobs http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-40245 Arno Jacobs Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:45:13 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-40245 Thanks John, Reading your interview again I realize that you are a good master. This interview reflects my way of collecting very good and I think that I am touched by your thoughts when I get starting collecting Japanese porcelain some 7 years ago. My first Japanese piece came from you in 2004 and since we stay in contact. Thanks pal for being my inspiration. Kind regards, Arno Thanks John,

Reading your interview again I realize that you are a good master. This interview reflects my way of collecting very good and I think that I am touched by your thoughts when I get starting collecting Japanese porcelain some 7 years ago. My first Japanese piece came from you in 2004 and since we stay in contact.

Thanks pal for being my inspiration.

Kind regards,
Arno

]]> By: john Turner http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-26487 john Turner Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:11:19 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-26487 Greetings, I noticed your item with the hallmark "Handpainted Trico Nagoya-Japan. I recently acquired a vase with the hallmark "Handpainted Trioo Nagoya-Japan". While my hallmark is clear and easily read it isn't as industrial as yours. Meaning is bolder and of more pronounced print. My question is, have you ever heard of and can you suggest any postings to find "Handpainted Trico Nagoya-Japan"? Any help will be appreciated and thank you so much. JT Greetings,
I noticed your item with the hallmark “Handpainted Trico Nagoya-Japan. I recently acquired a vase with the hallmark “Handpainted Trioo Nagoya-Japan”. While my hallmark is clear and easily read it isn’t as industrial as yours. Meaning is bolder and of more pronounced print. My question is, have you ever heard of and can you suggest any postings to find “Handpainted Trico Nagoya-Japan”? Any help will be appreciated and thank you so much.

JT

]]> By: john Turner http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-26484 john Turner Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:09:10 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-26484 Greetings Gary, I too have recently bought a japanese piece with the "Handpainted Troo nagoya-Japan" hallmark. I have just begun my search for info. Perhaps you would share anything you have learned. This is a 6" aprox tall vase, with a large flaring mouth aprox 3" diam. Vase also has Coraline Beading. At the moment I am focusing on the hallmark. Thanks so much for any help you may offer. John Greetings Gary, I too have recently bought a japanese piece with the “Handpainted Troo nagoya-Japan” hallmark. I have just begun my search for info. Perhaps you would share anything you have learned. This is a 6″ aprox tall vase, with a large flaring mouth aprox 3″ diam. Vase also has Coraline Beading. At the moment I am focusing on the hallmark. Thanks so much for any help you may offer.

John

]]> By: GARY FORBES http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-18191 GARY FORBES Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:56:23 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-18191 We have several pieces of what we assume are post war Japanese porcelain pieces the first a clown cookie jar with the mark “8979 JAPAN” the second is a delicate sugar bowl “hand painted” and what looks like “TRIOO NAGOYA JAPAN” If anyone can help me establish the provenance of these I would appreciate the assistance. We have several pieces of what we assume are post war Japanese porcelain pieces the first a clown cookie jar with the mark “8979 JAPAN” the second is a delicate sugar bowl “hand painted” and what looks like “TRIOO NAGOYA JAPAN” If anyone can help me establish the provenance of these I would appreciate the assistance.

]]> By: Dave Pike http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-14424 Dave Pike Wed, 12 May 2010 06:08:01 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-14424 Hello Ed, I contacted John and he sent me the following discussion about the piece you asked about. It is inclusive but has a lot of interesting information. The discussion took place on a big porcelain board. Dave Begin paste. Greetings - I have often spoken here of the small shop I frequent weekly for tea and to discover unrecognized national treasures. I have not discovered any....yet. About ten days ago when I visited, I helped the owner offload some items from his small truck. One object was a very large vase that was, in a word, spectacular. In the shop I looked it over very carefully and although it had a wooden base bonded to it because the previous owner had cats, I bought it without knowing if it was marked in any way. It was, in my opinion,unmistakably Satsuma, and after removing the wooden base, the mark read Satsuma and had another marking next to it. Because it was spectacular in quality, I had it appraised and it was authenticated as Satsuma and famous artist attributed. Then, I thought of selling it, so contacted someone I know who handles high end Satsuma. He said unmistakably Chinese. I sent more high definition photos and his reply was "Sorry, it is Chinese." Well... I then contacted a third person, and she concurred in it being Chinese, indicating that around 1990 she saw some "marvelous" Chinese pieces that were similar in size and were marked Satsuma, and they were new, from China. I have never seen such an impeccable piece in terms of quality, except in high end authentic Satsuma. If Chinese (and I hold out a slight hope as part of my wishful thinking) it is the first piece I have seen that except for the artist mark/style, that is as Satsuma as Satsuma and only someone who has firsthand knowledge of these 'marvelous' reproductions will not be fooled. Point is that second opinions are important and when there is a difference of opinion, to get a third one. If I had tried to sell this vase using my respected appraisal, I could have been embarrassed and so would the appraiser. Now I have a marvelous vase to keep flowers in that I did not pay much for, and that is very good. Cheers! John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3162 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Cheers And.... Since there is no longer any commercial intent, take a look at these four views and take a shot. Is it real, or is it....? 36cm tall, 1.2 meters circumference at widest. I'd value fourth, fifth and more opinions. It is indeed marvelous: Upload Upload Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3163 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) And... the convincing (to me) details. Cheers! Upload Upload Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 252 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: gatehouse2.dhs.vic.gov.au Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, thanks for posting the photos. It does look great. Fine workmanship. The only suspicious part to me is the overall color pallete. Somehow most of the tones especially the pinks and blues don't look right for Satsuma. But I admit I would have been likely fooled by this piece without hindsight. Regards Paul Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 253 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: gatehouse2.dhs.vic.gov.au Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Having a closer look at your new photos, the crackle work is also doubtful and the raised areas appear like the more mundane Chinese Satsuma. Regards Paul Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3165 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) And...Oh yes...... Here is the mark: Cheers! John Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3166 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 06:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Paul - Don't be too sure.... Not all Satsuma has highly crackled glaze, although it is a common characteristic. And raised gilding is also common on the less mundane (smiling!). Cheers! John: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3167 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 06:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Paul and All - Not to convince myself (or others), Satsuma was produced in Kagoshima, Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Kobe, and Kanazawa by hundreds of known artists, in many styles and by literally thousands of unknown decorators. Meizan has pieces authenticated as being done in Kanazawa (Kutani). For most of the "Zan" brothers nothing is known, in spite of very good quality work, and many good studio pieces are simply unmarked. I was fooled by this one to be sure, so I'll be fooled again, no doubt! Ha! Double Cheers, John: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3168 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 07:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - I got a great comment offline (actually two) that kept my hopes alive. If this is from the 1990s and Chinese, where did they obtain a high end 1910 style piece to study in 1990 to such perfection and find an artist to exquisitely duplicate a high end piece reproducing the flat gilding, shaded enamels, flat and multilayered gilding and locate a Meizan mark to copy on a smooth crackled surface on a vase weighing in at more than 25 lbs by conservative estimate for primarily an American and European market. And how did it end up in a lady's home in rural Japan who bonded a base on it to keep her cats from knocking it over. Where there is no decoration, the glaze, although crackled is smooth and without seams, not like the Chinese Satsuma I am used to touching, which feels like fine sandpaper. Feel free to jump on one side or another. Maybe the jury is not in yet....? First four photos are pretty accurate for color. Others were close up with a hand held light and are a bit orangish. Triple Cheers, John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Roberta Enseki-Hancock Silver Pheasant Username: Sotech Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: amontpellier-257-1-98-60.w86-219.abo.wanadoo.fr Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 08:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Dear John, I think your vase is spectacular! I agree with the offline comments you got, and hope that you are able to get more information from the experts. In the meantime, maybe you could use another vase for the flowers :-) Regards, Roberta Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Arno Jacobs Peacock Username: Jcbs Post Number: 535 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: pc85160025.fontys.nl Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 09:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Dear John, I can say nothing about it except, if its hand painted, it's art anyhow. Just wait a couple of years, and the world will see :-). Cheers, Arno Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Tommy Eklöf Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Toekl2002 Post Number: 1698 Registered: 04-2003 Posted From: c-eec3e253.66-11-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John. It's a beautiful vase IMO. If you compare with other works of Meizan (does the mark say Meizan?)what do you think? I have tried but I have not so much books of Japanese pieces. I have looked at Sotheby´s sales. If I compare I don't think the painting style is the same. This painting is too stiff and I can't recognize any of the flowers, borders, butterflies or the dotting styles on the other pieces. I hope I am terrible wrong. I have not seen any Chinese copies that can be compared by the Satsuma masters but I would like to know if there really are such copies. Unmistakable Chinese? If you ask the Chinese section they certainly say too stiff to be Chinese:-). Regards Tommy Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3170 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 06:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi Tommy - It is hard to compare with Meizan (I have not seen his work close up), little is known of him, but we do know he did work in Kanazawa (and Osaka?). I have only seen photos, and most are smaller pieces. He does seem to like jet black, as appears in the cock's tail. The mark is Meizan but I have not seen any color photographs of the mark. China, Taiwan and Hong Kong copy Satsuma, but the pieces I have seen are vastly inferior to this piece, and rarely, if ever use this amount of gilt. They are usually kind of rough to the touch, don't have really fine small detail, and use a more crude moriage in most cases. Sandra said she saw a number of fine quality vases of this type in New York (Sothebys) about 1990 that were made in China, but in looking at this piece, it is difficult to believe it was mass produced - It would just seem to difficult and time consuming. It is nicely and evenly glazed inside, something that seems to be omitted or not quite of this quality in Chinese reproductions. If these were mass produced, I would think a few might surface now and then, and I'll keep an eye out. I don't have a terminal case of wishful thinking, but just enough lingering doubt. Meizan, like Shoza is exceedingly hard to attribute, but we can usually tell if the piece is Japanese. Looking for more opinions, always. Cheers, John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3171 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 07:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - In looking at references, came across these in Treasures of Imperial Japan - Ceramics From The Kahili Collection, National Museum of Wales, Page 79 - Top mark almost identical - Maybe I am beating a dying horse..... And Louis Lawrence says identical calligraphy to mine on the vase on a Meizan attributed piece done in Kanazawa..... So... keeping this dying hope on life support....Ahhhhh... Cheers - John: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3172 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 07:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - Here they are, side by side. Not sure the Chinese have a copy of the National Museum of Wales exhibition catalog to copy the mark. It isn't a perfect match, but pretty close? Cheers - John: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Hans Slager Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Hansenclair Post Number: 2573 Registered: 04-2003 Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John Can you show us the whole base and a close-up of the foot ? Hans Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3174 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 01:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hello Hans - Here are four taken last week. If you want higher definition, happy to oblige. Edward Kawanabe looked at the vase, and felt it was a Kanazawa (Kutani) made piece copying work done when Meizan worked there. He said not Chinese. And, in the Satsuma book by Lawrence, there is a teapot with the Meizan mark on the spout. It is almost identical to the mark on my vase and the one above from a Kahili Collection piece. Cheers, John: Upload Upload Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Howard Reed Golden Pheasant Username: Reedh Post Number: 974 Registered: 05-2003 Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 03:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hello all, time to nail my colours to the mast. As I have told John off-site, I have absolutely no doubt that this piece is Japanese, and a very fine quality piece at that. Some time ago, we all had a long discussion about the different "Meizans", see http://www.gotheborg.com/discus/read.php?file=/12129/90330.html There are 2 well recognised Meizans (altho not universally, it would seem) - the well-known Yabu Meizan, and the lesser known (and rather anonymous) Meizan, who used a different character for "mei". It is this artist (not Yabu Meizan) who is represented here. There are other Meizans discussed in that thread also. I have had the privilege of seeing some of the off-board emails between John and his advisors. My views are: - definitely Japanese, and not Chinese - of the period which it purports to be (1910-25) - genuine work of the lesser known "Meizan" - marked "Satsuma" and clearly in Satsuma style, regardless of where it was made. - of the highest quality - decorated and painted by a well-practiced and probably "master", which no faker could imitate. As said, little is known of this Meizan, and certainly Ian Heriot suggested in the other thread that he worked in Osaka. However, at least one pair of vases is known with this mark which is also marked as being done at Kanazawa in Kaga province (ie the Kutani area). This mark is also referenced (if not shown) in the other thread. One of John's advisers has suggested that there are elements of Kutani style in this fantastic vase, and now that this is pointed out, I have to agree. Look at the focus on birds - the ducks, the crane, the chickens - and the butterflies, for example, and the way in which the birds are drawn. And the red and gold border around the neck. I have no problem with Meizan being either a) a Kutani based artist or b) visiting and working in Kanazawa even if he did work also in Osaka. But I still do not think this was done by another Kutani artist in homage (or rip off) of the celebrated but little known master. This is the real thing. I think it increases our understanding of Meizan and suggests that he spent a significant period of time in Kanazawa, regardless of whether he also worked elsewhere. Howard Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3176 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 07:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings All - Not sure whether here or in the Satsuma section it might be time to recap what is known or surmised regarding Meizan. Schiffer's book on Imari and Satsuma doesn't mention Meizan nor does her book Japanese Porcelain 1800 - 1950. Jenyns is silent since he is concerned mostly with porcelain, loathing "hideous chromo-lithographs of red and gold Kutani, brocaded Satsuma and other ceramic horrors..." with no mention of any Meizan. Meiji Ceramics by Jahn makes no mention of Meizan, and the catalog of pieces exhibited in Paris, Vienna, and Chicago show only Yabu Meizan pieces. Elain Strachan's catalog of Satsuma pieces is absent any Meizan examples. Sandra Andacht's book mentions only Yabu Meizan. Louis Lawrence in Satsuma says "The Meizan studios had no connection with those of Yabu Meizan." The book shows two Meizan marks different than those of Yabu Meizan. Satsuma by Omori shows many pieces with the typed characters for Meizan (I presume Yabu Meizan) and in the actual markings shown, but no Meizan mark like the one on my vase. The National Museum of Wales shows many Yabu Meizan pieces and four Meizan pieces, and shows the marks of Meizan as different. Interestingly..."We have already noticed the work of another potter who used the name Meizan. The figures on his wares are markedly different from those of Yabu Meizan, hence the consciousness of his identity." It goes on to say that Meizan followed the styles of Yabu Meizan, but does not elaborate much. Louis Lawrence in an email to me and another by Edward Kawanabe confirm a pair of vases by Meizan that also included Kanazawa in the inscription which would indicate to me that at least for a while Meizan worked in Kutani. Another source (can't immediately recall where, but in my bookcase somewhere) indicated that another studio took the Meizan name and the works, although good, were not of the same quality. Can't find the Satsuma at the Spinks I referred to in the other thread, but it referenced Meizan's Kanazawa (Kutani) made vases too. For the record, Louis Lawrence authenticated and appraised this vase, indicating the same distinctive style of calligraphy was consistent with the Kanazawa Meizan vases mentioned, dating it 1910-1925 and pointed out the use of black in dating it as well as a rather Deco feel, particularly the dotted roundels in the duck background and the stylization of the cranes supporting both panels. I believe Sandra still feels it is a 1990 or thereabouts Chinese copy, and another colleague I heard from also says Chinese. Scott Loar posted today in a linked thread that he thought it was Chinese. Edward Kawanabe thinks probably Kutani copying a Meizan style. So... not a lot of consensus yet. I am with Howard on this one all the way, partly from wishful thinking but also because after holding it and looking at it closely, I just can't imagine anyone copying this quality. Anyone wanting to add any factual information on Meizan is welcome to post it here. I have seen pictures of Yabu Meizan. If Meizan was active 1910-1924 concurrently with Yabu Meizan who died 1934, I would expect some biographical/historical/pictorial data would exist, whether he worked in Osaka, Kyoto or Kanazawa. Sheeesh! Quadruple Cheers - John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Diego Vatta Peacock Username: Diego Post Number: 677 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: host53-222.pool8248.interbusiness.it Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 08:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, hello everybody. Let me say first of all that it would be better IMO to repost this thread to the appropriate Satsuma section, where it belongs, and not keep it relegated to a place that not everybody visits frequently. Secondly, this looks like a great piece decorated in a bold manner, by an artist that does not conform to traditional Satsuma looks but shows a definite character of his own in the use of lines, sgraffito-like brushstrokes and enamels. I am referring in particular to the cockerel's neck feathers, head and crest. This artist had no time restraints. I find it hard to believe, like some advisors said, that somebody, somewhere in China, can avail himself of the visual information to copy a style of this kind to this level of perfection without being a master of the highest order himself, but the marks? And then, would his painstaking research and work end up in a local small shop where John has tea, instead of a high end shop or auction house? A very interesting thread, vase and case. Thanks for posting it, John, and thanks for your comments, Howard. Cheers, Diego Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Scott Loar White Crane Username: Scottloar Post Number: 1353 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: c-67-162-72-246.hsd1.il.comcast.net Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 08:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) These more detailed photos I've just noticed convince me more than ever this piece is of Chinese make circa 1910-25. Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 257 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 203-214-122-164.dyn.iinet.net.au Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 08:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi all. I am starting to doubt that this is was ever really a Chinese copy . The shape, and overall quality does not look anything remotely like the Chinese Satsuma copies I have seen. Although I am not backing away from the inconsistencies I mentioned earlier, I still think the color pallete is not typical Satsuma. I just wonder whether this is a very late piece for this kind of pottery? Maybe 1930 to 1940 period. An example of the last of the very best? I am aware of the existence of other Meizen potters but not too familiar with there works. Regards Paul Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Howard Reed Golden Pheasant Username: Reedh Post Number: 975 Registered: 05-2003 Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 03:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hello again, 2 minor matters. Firstly, I misled readers when I said that the lesser known Meizan used a different character for "mei". What actually differs (markedly) is the style of the calligraphy, rather than the character, which is the same. The lesser known Meizan uses a distinctive seal style, which never seems to have been recorded together with the characters for "yabu". 2ndly John, a couple more photos might be useful in gaining unanimity over provenance - focussing on the border pattern and colouring around the neck. Howard Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Dean R Kelly Silver Pheasant Username: Gatorq Post Number: 61 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: ac915112.ipt.aol.com Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 04:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) John, I really can not add anything meaningful to this discussion. I just wanted to thank you for sharing this piece. It is absolutely gorgeous. I especially like the duck. quack quack. I hope for your sake that Howard and others are right, that it is a piece by a Japanese master. Regards, Dean Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3177 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 07:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - Here are two neck rim photos: Cheers, John: Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3178 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 07:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) And... in thinking of Kutani influence, this is a close up of one of two smaller panels on the shoulder: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3179 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 07:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) And the other panel - a Kingfisher - a very well known Kutani motif.... Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Jim Horne White Crane Username: Jimho Post Number: 1352 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 204.119.gr5.adsl.brightview.com Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 09:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John , List, OK, I am not a expert on anything, but would like to say that my first impression was high quality transfer printed vase with hand colouring , and modern , this seen not only because of the precision of the images ( I know satsuma artists were precise , but there seems a mechanical notion here ) the ducks look almost photographic. Then the condition, it is perfect , the gilding on the rim not a speck of wear , no obvious flake to any of the raised decor , take the palette used, I havent seen this combination of colours on Meiji period satsuma ( I havent seen it all ). The mark would be the easiest to copy. Now the roosters do look a bit Shoza in style ? why would a talented satsuma artist pay homage to a contemporary Kutani artist ? To close my first impressions I must go with China as origin, and late 20th C. as date. It is an impressive vase, beautiful decorative piece, and would be expensive no doubt, have I missed another masters work !!! ? Regards Jim Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3180 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 12:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi Jim - Every opinion is really good to have. Below I attached detail from the rooster tail, where you can see the enamels up close. Very slightly raised, very precisely painted, and in some places individual brush strokes are evident. This appears on the ducks as well, although from a distance they appear photographic. When I revisited the shop on Wednesday, owner did not know much. He said he thought this was bought new before the war. Lady always had cats so base was mounted right away. It was then too awkward and heavy for her to move so stayed in one location. But like all stories, one cannot be sure. However, this could explain the lack of wear. Given its size and weight, and the glued on base, I expect it would not have been handled much. Base was Zitan, highly grained and expensive. I ruined it pulling it off, as some wood stuck to the rim with the bond. Both other vases from this lady had Zitan bases glued on them (both very large Oribe pieces). Cheers and Thanks, John: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3181 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 02:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) And... Butterfly close-up with impressions: Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3182 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 03:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Two more close ups: Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 264 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: gatehouse1.dhs.vic.gov.au Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 04:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, I have just realized I have a porcelain bowl with similar rooster painting. The colors are similar also. The bowl is not as elaborate as your vase but dates from the 1930's. It is Japanese but has different marks. I will post photos when I have time in a day or so. I am now fairly convinced that your vase is Japanese and likely dates to the late 1930's Regards Paul Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 266 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 203-214-123-115.dyn.iinet.net.au Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, here the rooster bowl. Photos not too good because its dark. They look very similar to yours and its a similar color pallete. i don't know who made it but I believe it is japanese and dates from the 1930's. Regards Paul Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno Silver Pheasant Username: Paulseno Post Number: 267 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 203-214-123-115.dyn.iinet.net.au Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Jim Horne White Crane Username: Jimho Post Number: 1355 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 204.119.gr5.adsl.brightview.com Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 12:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, Paul, List, Very good photos John and your analysis is very helpful , this would be great in a text book , should be in a text book , thank you. I am still unsure of this piece , it could 1930`s , though I feel the bowl Paul posted is another kettle of fish. I am puzzled by the enamel on the cocks tail you have shown, it looks rippled ? like it was applied in some other way than by brush ? then the large butterfly , you mention " fine raised lines " , that may mean some form of embossing , maybe silk screened like PCB`s ? This piece may be a very high tech production ? , I do see that there is skillful hand colouring here and there too. It is high quality. If you imagine the blank vase being firstly glazed , then a complete mesh of the whole pattern ( computer generated ) very carefully applied then fired to fix it , finally the washes and various shadings applied by hand ,then the gilt embossing overlaid and once more to the kiln. This is just musing John, I have no knowledge of this process if it exists its a good guess only. Then on the other hand....it may be all hand done by the Meizan studio in the Taisho period, ( where I have seen some of these colours ) So.... : ) A good learning thread, and well presented. P.S. John, did the guy say why a base would deter cats ? or even make it more stable ? just a thought. Regards Jim Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Hans Slager Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Hansenclair Post Number: 2575 Registered: 04-2003 Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 12:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hello John, all The striations/ripples observed in most opaque enamels are most peculiar. They suggest shrinkage or a mechanical reason. Many enamels are positioned on top of eachother but without clear signs of fusion. I don't see any crackling in the enamels either. This all worries me quite some. John, have you tried sticking a glowing hot needle into the opaque enamels ? Hans Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Lee Inness-Brown Silver Pheasant Username: Leeib Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: dpc691914035.direcpc.com Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 01:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, Here are some pictures of a small hexagonal pot, about 10 cm tall. The second photo is about 1.5X life size. It has good provenance which I believe it dates from about 1902-1925 (better dating available, but will take a bit of research to get the exact date). It was a wedding present to my wife's forebearers. The scale of the piece is very different from your impressive vase, but the representation of the head of the rooster is remarkably similar, including the stippling on the comb and wattle. Best regards, Lee Upload Upload Upload Upload Upload Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3184 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 12:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - For Jim - foot is relatively small given the girth, and although stable, I think a push would make it roll over. The Zitan base was quite large. For Hans, no, but I can try it. What do I look for? Some enamels are crackled slightly, most are not. Cheers, John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Hans Slager Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Hansenclair Post Number: 2577 Registered: 04-2003 Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 02:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John If 1990+ there is a possibility the enamels are what they call 'porcelain paint'; some thermo-hardening substance that hardens at around 150 Celsius so DIY via the kitchen stove. Dishwasher proof etc. You may have used it yourself in your kutani painting efforts ? Possibly such substance may melt with the needle test, something which true enamels wouldn't. You might also do the steel knife scratch test; true enamels don't scratch (unless real force is exerted) Regards Hans Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3185 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 12:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings Hans - Tried the scratch test last night. Enamels will not easily scratch, but if a fine point and enough pressure, I can see a line. Feels like glass and sounds like it when I tap the point on it. Will try the hot needle probably tonight or tomorrow. Not sure what this means yet. Cheers, John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher (Johninjapan) Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3195 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 09:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - I missed a nice exhibition on Yabu Meizan in Osaka last year, and although the catalog is no longer available, I talked the curator in to finding one for me and he kindly did (should arrive this week). It is interesting that we know so much about Yabu Meizan but virtually nothing about the other Meizan and they worked in a similar time line. Here is what Yabu looked like: Upload Cheers - John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Howard Reed (Reedh) Golden Pheasant Username: Reedh Post Number: 979 Registered: 05-2003 Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 02:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John and all, it will be interesting to see what the cattle dog (er, catalogue) has to say about Meizan marks. Having had more time to study and ruminate over the various photos, I haven't changed my mind. It still looks to be a Satsuma vase (as marked!) done in what is very much a Kutani-influenced style. The cracked ice border seems okay in this regard also. I agree that the decoration has some intriguing features. The first is the perfection of the black outlining. It does rather suggest that stencils were used, although I suspect we will find that this was a lot more commonplace than we realise (if Yabu Meizan was doing it, I can't see why the huge commercial studio of Kinkozan would have refrained). Stencils to me argue in favour of Japanese production, rather than Chinese, particularly if the date is agreed as early. Secondly, as Hans has pointed out - the ripples and shrinkage cracks in some of the solid enamel decoration. It does look like shrinkage. And I have never seen this in "hard" enamels. That hot pin test should determine whether they are acrylic or polymer in nature. But then, I really can't see the Chinese using polymers around 1990 either. At this stage, we have 3 opinions: - Japanese and of the period 1910-25 - Chinese copy and of the period circa 1910-25 - Chinese copy, circa 1990. Where to from here? Howard Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher (Johninjapan) Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3206 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 03:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi Howard, not sure - Hot pin test tonight or tomorrow. Georges Bouvier arrives in about an hour and the Champagne is chilled. We will gulp some Daiginjo afterwards, pound down some beers, open a 1990 Chateau Margaux and increase our IQ by several points and ponder the possible Kutani origin of this vase. If imitation is the best form of flattery, why does Meizan stand in the very dark shadow of Yabu Meizan? Is it possible the pundits are wrong, and they are one and the same...? Well, off to pick up Georges at the train station and hit a few local antique haunts! Cheers! John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Dean R Kelly (Gatorq) Silver Pheasant Username: Gatorq Post Number: 71 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: aca46ef3.ipt.aol.com Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 06:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) John, I am champing at the bit (southern USA term) to hear what you found out about your vase. Anything of note from your get together with Georges? I have followed this thread with fascination as you dig up information and do a methodical review of this lovely vase. Thanks to all for sharing their insight. Regards, Dean Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Hans Slager (Hansenclair) Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Hansenclair Post Number: 2582 Registered: 04-2003 Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 01:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, all I tried the hot needle test on a restored piece on which regular paint was used to decorate the restored areas. I found I couldn't burn a hole in the paint presumably because the heat holding capacity of the needle-tip is too low and the contact area is small. Likely a bigger object than a needle is necessary to get the job done. I have been looking at the vase a dozen times and still don't get a good feel for it. Sorry. 1. As said I just don't understand several phenomena of the 'enamels' which is most worrying. 2. On a highly detailed vase like this why are the marks so poorly positioned to eachother ? 3. I find the male duck out of proportion (slightly too long a body); it really could/should have been done better. The Japanese were masters in realistic drawing of natural objects. 4. The wisteria leaves, very common on Japanese porcelain, are not very well drawn either. Lee's vase is much better and classic in style. Nevertheless it remains a pleasure to look at but these are my criticisms. Cheers and have a great time with Georges ! Hans Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message John Wocher (Johninjapan) Dragon (Board Moderator) Username: Johninjapan Post Number: 3213 Registered: 09-2003 Posted From: 210.162.146.228 Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 05:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Greetings - Probably the last word (but without resolution). I tried the hot pointed object on three points where I thought it may be undetected. At each point a very tiny black mark was left, which almost rubbed completely off, but it was like touching glass - very hard, even with some mild pressure. Georges looked at it when he was here, but I don't feel he felt it was of Kutani origin, but we didn't spend much time looking at it. Agree mark placement not usual, but have not seen many Meizan marks to conclude unlikely though, but concur odd. Thanks to all who contributed. My conclusion, a Satsuma-like vase of good quality with an atypical Meizan mark for which precise origin and dating is not yet established, but with an appraisal dating it 1910 - 1925 Satsuma of Japanese origin, marked Meizan. Double Cheers, John Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message Paul Seno (Paulseno) Peacock Username: Paulseno Post Number: 329 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 203-214-127-122.perm.iinet.net.au Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Hi John, I tend to agree with you except that I think it dates to the 1930's. Regards Paul Top of Form Hello Ed,
I contacted John and he sent me the following discussion about the piece you asked about. It is inclusive but has a lot of interesting information. The discussion took place on a big porcelain board.

Dave

Begin paste.

Greetings – I have often spoken here of the small shop I frequent weekly for tea and to discover unrecognized national treasures. I have not discovered any….yet. About ten days ago when I visited, I helped the owner offload some items from his small truck. One object was a very large vase that was, in a word, spectacular. In the shop I looked it over very carefully and although it had a wooden base bonded to it because the previous owner had cats, I bought it without knowing if it was marked in any way. It was, in my opinion,unmistakably Satsuma, and after removing the wooden base, the mark read Satsuma and had another marking next to it. Because it was spectacular in quality, I had it appraised and it was authenticated as Satsuma and famous artist attributed. Then, I thought of selling it, so contacted someone I know who handles high end Satsuma. He said unmistakably Chinese. I sent more high definition photos and his reply was “Sorry, it is Chinese.” Well… I then contacted a third person, and she concurred in it being Chinese, indicating that around 1990 she saw some “marvelous” Chinese pieces that were similar in size and were marked Satsuma, and they were new, from China. I have never seen such an impeccable piece in terms of quality, except in high end authentic Satsuma. If Chinese (and I hold out a slight hope as part of my wishful thinking) it is the first piece I have seen that except for the artist mark/style, that is as Satsuma as Satsuma and only someone who has firsthand knowledge of these ‘marvelous’ reproductions will not be fooled. Point is that second opinions are important and when there is a difference of opinion, to get a third one. If I had tried to sell this vase using my respected appraisal, I could have been embarrassed and so would the appraiser. Now I have a marvelous vase to keep flowers in that I did not pay much for, and that is very good. Cheers!
John

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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3162
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 05:33 am:

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Cheers And…. Since there is no longer any commercial intent, take a look at these four views and take a shot. Is it real, or is it….?
36cm tall, 1.2 meters circumference at widest.
I’d value fourth, fifth and more opinions. It is indeed marvelous:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3163
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 05:42 am:

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And… the convincing (to me) details.
Cheers!
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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 252
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: gatehouse2.dhs.vic.gov.au

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 05:44 am:

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Hi John, thanks for posting the photos. It does look great. Fine workmanship. The only suspicious part to me is the overall color pallete. Somehow most of the tones especially the pinks and blues don’t look right for Satsuma. But I admit I would have been likely fooled by this piece without hindsight.

Regards
Paul

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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 253
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: gatehouse2.dhs.vic.gov.au

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 05:48 am:

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Having a closer look at your new photos, the crackle work is also doubtful and the raised areas appear like the more mundane Chinese Satsuma.
Regards
Paul

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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3165
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 05:55 am:

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And…Oh yes…… Here is the mark:
Cheers! John
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3166
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 06:02 am:

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Paul – Don’t be too sure…. Not all Satsuma has highly crackled glaze, although it is a common characteristic. And raised gilding is also common on the less mundane (smiling!).
Cheers! John:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3167
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 06:31 am:

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Paul and All – Not to convince myself (or others), Satsuma was produced in Kagoshima, Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Kobe, and Kanazawa by hundreds of known artists, in many styles and by literally thousands of unknown decorators. Meizan has pieces authenticated as being done in Kanazawa (Kutani). For most of the “Zan” brothers nothing is known, in spite of very good quality work, and many good studio pieces are simply unmarked. I was fooled by this one to be sure, so I’ll be fooled again, no doubt! Ha!
Double Cheers,
John:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3168
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 07:47 am:

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Greetings -
I got a great comment offline (actually two) that kept my hopes alive. If this is from the 1990s and Chinese, where did they obtain a high end 1910 style piece to study in 1990 to such perfection and find an artist to exquisitely duplicate a high end piece reproducing the flat gilding, shaded enamels, flat and multilayered gilding and locate a Meizan mark to copy on a smooth crackled surface on a vase weighing in at more than 25 lbs by conservative estimate for primarily an American and European market. And how did it end up in a lady’s home in rural Japan who bonded a base on it to keep her cats from knocking it over. Where there is no decoration, the glaze, although crackled is smooth and without seams, not like the Chinese Satsuma I am used to touching, which feels like fine sandpaper. Feel free to jump on one side or another. Maybe the jury is not in yet….?
First four photos are pretty accurate for color. Others were close up with a hand held light and are a bit orangish. Triple Cheers, John

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Roberta Enseki-Hancock
Silver Pheasant
Username: Sotech

Post Number: 183
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: amontpellier-257-1-98-60.w86-219.abo.wanadoo.fr

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 08:22 am:

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Dear John,

I think your vase is spectacular! I agree with the offline comments you got, and hope that you are able to get more information from the experts. In the meantime, maybe you could use another vase for the flowers :-)

Regards,
Roberta

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Arno Jacobs
Peacock
Username: Jcbs

Post Number: 535
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: pc85160025.fontys.nl

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 09:05 am:

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Dear John,

I can say nothing about it except, if its hand painted, it’s art anyhow. Just wait a couple of years, and the world will see :-).

Cheers,
Arno

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Tommy Eklöf
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Toekl2002

Post Number: 1698
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: c-eec3e253.66-11-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 – 11:56 am:

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Hi John.

It’s a beautiful vase IMO.
If you compare with other works of Meizan (does the mark say Meizan?)what do you think? I have tried but I have not so much books of Japanese pieces. I have looked at Sotheby´s sales. If I compare I don’t think the painting style is the same. This painting is too stiff and I can’t recognize any of the flowers, borders, butterflies or the dotting styles on the other pieces.
I hope I am terrible wrong. I have not seen any Chinese copies that can be compared by the Satsuma masters but I would like to know if there really are such copies.
Unmistakable Chinese? If you ask the Chinese section they certainly say too stiff to be Chinese:-).

Regards Tommy

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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3170
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 – 06:36 am:

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Hi Tommy -
It is hard to compare with Meizan (I have not seen his work close up), little is known of him, but we do know he did work in Kanazawa (and Osaka?). I have only seen photos, and most are smaller pieces. He does seem to like jet black, as appears in the cock’s tail. The mark is Meizan but I have not seen any color photographs of the mark. China, Taiwan and Hong Kong copy Satsuma, but the pieces I have seen are vastly inferior to this piece, and rarely, if ever use this amount of gilt. They are usually kind of rough to the touch, don’t have really fine small detail, and use a more crude moriage in most cases. Sandra said she saw a number of fine quality vases of this type in New York (Sothebys) about 1990 that were made in China, but in looking at this piece, it is difficult to believe it was mass produced – It would just seem to difficult and time consuming. It is nicely and evenly glazed inside, something that seems to be omitted or not quite of this quality in Chinese reproductions. If these were mass produced, I would think a few might surface now and then, and I’ll keep an eye out. I don’t have a terminal case of wishful thinking, but just enough lingering doubt. Meizan, like Shoza is exceedingly hard to attribute, but we can usually tell if the piece is Japanese. Looking for more opinions, always.
Cheers,
John

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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3171
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 – 07:31 am:

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Greetings – In looking at references, came across these in Treasures of Imperial Japan – Ceramics From The Kahili Collection, National Museum of Wales, Page 79 – Top mark almost identical – Maybe I am beating a dying horse….. And Louis Lawrence says identical calligraphy to mine on the vase on a Meizan attributed piece done in Kanazawa….. So… keeping this dying hope on life support….Ahhhhh…
Cheers – John:
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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3172
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 – 07:46 am:

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Greetings -
Here they are, side by side. Not sure the Chinese have a copy of the National Museum of Wales exhibition catalog to copy the mark. It isn’t a perfect match, but pretty close?
Cheers – John:
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Hans Slager
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Hansenclair

Post Number: 2573
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl

Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 – 11:21 am:

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Hi John
Can you show us the whole base and a close-up of the foot ?

Hans

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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3174
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 01:52 am:

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Hello Hans -
Here are four taken last week. If you want higher definition, happy to oblige. Edward Kawanabe looked at the vase, and felt it was a Kanazawa (Kutani) made piece copying work done when Meizan worked there. He said not Chinese.
And, in the Satsuma book by Lawrence, there is a teapot with the Meizan mark on the spout. It is almost identical to the mark on my vase and the one above from a Kahili Collection piece.
Cheers, John:
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Howard Reed
Golden Pheasant
Username: Reedh

Post Number: 974
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 03:24 am:

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Hello all, time to nail my colours to the mast.

As I have told John off-site, I have absolutely no doubt that this piece is Japanese, and a very fine quality piece at that.

Some time ago, we all had a long discussion about the different “Meizans”, see http://www.gotheborg.com/discus/read.php?file=/12129/90330.html

There are 2 well recognised Meizans (altho not universally, it would seem) – the well-known Yabu Meizan, and the lesser known (and rather anonymous) Meizan, who used a different character for “mei”. It is this artist (not Yabu Meizan) who is represented here. There are other Meizans discussed in that thread also.

I have had the privilege of seeing some of the off-board emails between John and his advisors.

My views are:

- definitely Japanese, and not Chinese
- of the period which it purports to be (1910-25)
- genuine work of the lesser known “Meizan”
- marked “Satsuma” and clearly in Satsuma style, regardless of where it was made.
- of the highest quality – decorated and painted by a well-practiced and probably “master”, which no faker could imitate.

As said, little is known of this Meizan, and certainly Ian Heriot suggested in the other thread that he worked in Osaka. However, at least one pair of vases is known with this mark which is also marked as being done at Kanazawa in Kaga province (ie the Kutani area). This mark is also referenced (if not shown) in the other thread.

One of John’s advisers has suggested that there are elements of Kutani style in this fantastic vase, and now that this is pointed out, I have to agree. Look at the focus on birds – the ducks, the crane, the chickens – and the butterflies, for example, and the way in which the birds are drawn. And the red and gold border around the neck.

I have no problem with Meizan being either a) a Kutani based artist or b) visiting and working in Kanazawa even if he did work also in Osaka.

But I still do not think this was done by another Kutani artist in homage (or rip off) of the celebrated but little known master.

This is the real thing. I think it increases our understanding of Meizan and suggests that he spent a significant period of time in Kanazawa, regardless of whether he also worked elsewhere.

Howard

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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3176
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 07:29 am:

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Greetings All -
Not sure whether here or in the Satsuma section it might be time to recap what is known or surmised regarding Meizan. Schiffer’s book on Imari and Satsuma doesn’t mention Meizan nor does her book Japanese Porcelain 1800 – 1950. Jenyns is silent since he is concerned mostly with porcelain, loathing “hideous chromo-lithographs of red and gold Kutani, brocaded Satsuma and other ceramic horrors…” with no mention of any Meizan. Meiji Ceramics by Jahn makes no mention of Meizan, and the catalog of pieces exhibited in Paris, Vienna, and Chicago show only Yabu Meizan pieces. Elain Strachan’s catalog of Satsuma pieces is absent any Meizan examples.
Sandra Andacht’s book mentions only Yabu Meizan. Louis Lawrence in Satsuma says “The Meizan studios had no connection with those of Yabu Meizan.” The book shows two Meizan marks different than those of Yabu Meizan. Satsuma by Omori shows many pieces with the typed characters for Meizan (I presume Yabu Meizan) and in the actual markings shown, but no Meizan mark like the one on my vase. The National Museum of Wales shows many Yabu Meizan pieces and four Meizan pieces, and shows the marks of Meizan as different. Interestingly…”We have already noticed the work of another potter who used the name Meizan. The figures on his wares are markedly different from those of Yabu Meizan, hence the consciousness of his identity.” It goes on to say that Meizan followed the styles of Yabu Meizan, but does not elaborate much. Louis Lawrence in an email to me and another by Edward Kawanabe confirm a pair of vases by Meizan that also included Kanazawa in the inscription which would indicate to me that at least for a while Meizan worked in Kutani. Another source (can’t immediately recall where, but in my bookcase somewhere) indicated that another studio took the Meizan name and the works, although good, were not of the same quality. Can’t find the Satsuma at the Spinks I referred to in the other thread, but it referenced Meizan’s Kanazawa (Kutani) made vases too.
For the record, Louis Lawrence authenticated and appraised this vase, indicating the same distinctive style of calligraphy was consistent with the Kanazawa Meizan vases mentioned, dating it 1910-1925 and pointed out the use of black in dating it as well as a rather Deco feel, particularly the dotted roundels in the duck background and the stylization of the cranes supporting both panels. I believe Sandra still feels it is a 1990 or thereabouts Chinese copy, and another colleague I heard from also says Chinese. Scott Loar posted today in a linked thread that he thought it was Chinese. Edward Kawanabe thinks probably Kutani copying a Meizan style. So… not a lot of consensus yet. I am with Howard on this one all the way, partly from wishful thinking but also because after holding it and looking at it closely, I just can’t imagine anyone copying this quality. Anyone wanting to add any factual information on Meizan is welcome to post it here. I have seen pictures of Yabu Meizan. If Meizan was active 1910-1924 concurrently with Yabu Meizan who died 1934, I would expect some biographical/historical/pictorial data would exist, whether he worked in Osaka, Kyoto or Kanazawa. Sheeesh!
Quadruple Cheers – John

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Diego Vatta
Peacock
Username: Diego

Post Number: 677
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: host53-222.pool8248.interbusiness.it

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 08:23 am:

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Hi John, hello everybody.
Let me say first of all that it would be better IMO to repost this thread to the appropriate Satsuma section, where it belongs, and not keep it relegated to a place that not everybody visits frequently.
Secondly, this looks like a great piece decorated in a bold manner, by an artist that does not conform to traditional Satsuma looks but shows a definite character of his own in the use of lines, sgraffito-like brushstrokes and enamels. I am referring in particular to the cockerel’s neck feathers, head and crest.
This artist had no time restraints.
I find it hard to believe, like some advisors said, that somebody, somewhere in China, can avail himself of the visual information to copy a style of this kind to this level of perfection without being a master of the highest order himself, but the marks? And then, would his painstaking research and work end up in a local small shop where John has tea, instead of a high end shop or auction house?
A very interesting thread, vase and case.
Thanks for posting it, John, and thanks for your comments, Howard.
Cheers,
Diego

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Scott Loar
White Crane
Username: Scottloar

Post Number: 1353
Registered: 10-2006
Posted From: c-67-162-72-246.hsd1.il.comcast.net

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 08:33 am:

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These more detailed photos I’ve just noticed convince me more than ever this piece is of Chinese make circa 1910-25.

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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 257
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 203-214-122-164.dyn.iinet.net.au

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 – 08:36 am:

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Hi all. I am starting to doubt that this is was ever really a Chinese copy . The shape, and overall quality does not look anything remotely like the Chinese Satsuma copies I have seen. Although I am not backing away from the inconsistencies I mentioned earlier, I still think the color pallete is not typical Satsuma. I just wonder whether this is a very late piece for this kind of pottery? Maybe 1930 to 1940 period. An example of the last of the very best? I am aware of the existence of other Meizen potters but not too familiar with there works.

Regards
Paul

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Howard Reed
Golden Pheasant
Username: Reedh

Post Number: 975
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 03:22 am:

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Hello again,

2 minor matters. Firstly, I misled readers when I said that the lesser known Meizan used a different character for “mei”. What actually differs (markedly) is the style of the calligraphy, rather than the character, which is the same. The lesser known Meizan uses a distinctive seal style, which never seems to have been recorded together with the characters for “yabu”.

2ndly John, a couple more photos might be useful in gaining unanimity over provenance – focussing on the border pattern and colouring around the neck.

Howard

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Dean R Kelly
Silver Pheasant
Username: Gatorq

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: ac915112.ipt.aol.com

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 04:07 am:

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John,
I really can not add anything meaningful to this discussion. I just wanted to thank you for sharing this piece. It is absolutely gorgeous. I especially like the duck. quack quack.

I hope for your sake that Howard and others are right, that it is a piece by a Japanese master.

Regards,
Dean

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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3177
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 07:45 am:

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Greetings -
Here are two neck rim photos:
Cheers,
John:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3178
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 07:49 am:

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And… in thinking of Kutani influence, this is a close up of one of two smaller panels on the shoulder:
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John Wocher
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Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3179
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 07:54 am:

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And the other panel – a Kingfisher – a very well known Kutani motif….
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Jim Horne
White Crane
Username: Jimho

Post Number: 1352
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 204.119.gr5.adsl.brightview.com

Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 – 09:54 am:

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Hi John , List,
OK, I am not a expert on anything, but would like to say that my first impression was high quality transfer printed vase with hand colouring , and modern , this seen not only because of the precision of the images ( I know satsuma artists were precise , but there seems a mechanical notion here ) the ducks look almost photographic.
Then the condition, it is perfect , the gilding on the rim not a speck of wear , no obvious flake to any of the raised decor , take the palette used, I havent seen this combination of colours on Meiji period satsuma ( I havent seen it all ).
The mark would be the easiest to copy. Now the roosters do look a bit Shoza in style ? why would a talented satsuma artist pay homage to a contemporary Kutani artist ? To close my first impressions I must go with China as origin, and late 20th C. as date. It is an impressive vase, beautiful decorative piece, and would be expensive no doubt, have I missed another masters work !!! ?
Regards
Jim

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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3180
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 12:37 am:

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Hi Jim – Every opinion is really good to have.
Below I attached detail from the rooster tail, where you can see the enamels up close. Very slightly raised, very precisely painted, and in some places individual brush strokes are evident. This appears on the ducks as well, although from a distance they appear photographic. When I revisited the shop on Wednesday, owner did not know much. He said he thought this was bought new before the war. Lady always had cats so base was mounted right away. It was then too awkward and heavy for her to move so stayed in one location. But like all stories, one cannot be sure. However, this could explain the lack of wear. Given its size and weight, and the glued on base, I expect it would not have been handled much. Base was Zitan, highly grained and expensive. I ruined it pulling it off, as some wood stuck to the rim with the bond. Both other vases from this lady had Zitan bases glued on them (both very large Oribe pieces).
Cheers and Thanks,
John:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3181
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 02:52 am:

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And… Butterfly close-up with impressions:
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3182
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 03:17 am:

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Two more close ups:
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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 264
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: gatehouse1.dhs.vic.gov.au

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 04:43 am:

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Hi John, I have just realized I have a porcelain bowl with similar rooster painting. The colors are similar also. The bowl is not as elaborate as your vase but dates from the 1930′s. It is Japanese but has different marks. I will post photos when I have time in a day or so. I am now fairly convinced that your vase is Japanese and likely dates to the late 1930′s

Regards
Paul

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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 266
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 203-214-123-115.dyn.iinet.net.au

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 11:39 am:

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Hi John, here the rooster bowl. Photos not too good because its dark. They look very similar to yours and its a similar color pallete. i don’t know who made it but I believe it is japanese and dates from the 1930′s.

Regards
Paul
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Paul Seno
Silver Pheasant
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 267
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 203-214-123-115.dyn.iinet.net.au

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 11:42 am:

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Jim Horne
White Crane
Username: Jimho

Post Number: 1355
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 204.119.gr5.adsl.brightview.com

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 12:17 pm:

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Hi John, Paul, List,
Very good photos John and your analysis is very helpful , this would be great in a text book , should be in a text book , thank you.
I am still unsure of this piece , it could 1930`s , though I feel the bowl Paul posted is another kettle of fish. I am puzzled by the enamel on the cocks tail you have shown, it looks rippled ? like it was applied in some other way than by brush ? then the large butterfly , you mention ” fine raised lines ” , that may mean some form of embossing , maybe silk screened like PCB`s ? This piece may be a very high tech production ? , I do see that there is skillful hand colouring here and there too. It is high quality.
If you imagine the blank vase being firstly glazed , then a complete mesh of the whole pattern ( computer generated ) very carefully applied then fired to fix it , finally the washes and various shadings applied by hand ,then the gilt embossing overlaid and once more to the kiln. This is just musing John, I have no knowledge of this process if it exists its a good guess only.
Then on the other hand….it may be all hand done by the Meizan studio in the Taisho period, ( where I have seen some of these colours ) So…. : )
A good learning thread, and well presented.
P.S. John, did the guy say why a base would deter cats ? or even make it more stable ? just a thought.
Regards
Jim

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Hans Slager
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Hansenclair

Post Number: 2575
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl

Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 – 12:50 pm:

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Hello John, all

The striations/ripples observed in most opaque enamels are most peculiar. They suggest shrinkage or a mechanical reason. Many enamels are positioned on top of eachother but without clear signs of fusion. I don’t see any crackling in the enamels either. This all worries me quite some.

John, have you tried sticking a glowing hot needle into the opaque enamels ?

Hans

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Lee Inness-Brown
Silver Pheasant
Username: Leeib

Post Number: 166
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: dpc691914035.direcpc.com

Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 – 01:10 am:

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Hi John,

Here are some pictures of a small hexagonal pot, about 10 cm tall. The second photo is about 1.5X life size. It has good provenance which I believe it dates from about 1902-1925 (better dating available, but will take a bit of research to get the exact date). It was a wedding present to my wife’s forebearers.

The scale of the piece is very different from your impressive vase, but the representation of the head of the rooster is remarkably similar, including the stippling on the comb and wattle.

Best regards, Lee
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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3184
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 – 12:09 pm:

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Greetings – For Jim – foot is relatively small given the girth, and although stable, I think a push would make it roll over. The Zitan base was quite large. For Hans, no, but I can try it. What do I look for? Some enamels are crackled slightly, most are not.
Cheers,
John

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Hans Slager
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Hansenclair

Post Number: 2577
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: ipd50a7fc3.speed.planet.nl

Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 – 02:40 pm:

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Hi John

If 1990+ there is a possibility the enamels are what they call ‘porcelain paint’; some thermo-hardening substance that hardens at around 150 Celsius so DIY via the kitchen stove. Dishwasher proof etc. You may have used it yourself in your kutani painting efforts ? Possibly such substance may melt with the needle test, something which true enamels wouldn’t. You might also do the steel knife scratch test; true enamels don’t scratch (unless real force is exerted)

Regards Hans

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John Wocher
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3185
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 – 12:02 am:

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Greetings Hans – Tried the scratch test last night. Enamels will not easily scratch, but if a fine point and enough pressure, I can see a line. Feels like glass and sounds like it when I tap the point on it. Will try the hot needle probably tonight or tomorrow. Not sure what this means yet. Cheers, John

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John Wocher (Johninjapan)
Dragon (Board Moderator)
Username: Johninjapan

Post Number: 3195
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 – 09:03 am:

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Greetings – I missed a nice exhibition on Yabu Meizan in Osaka last year, and although the catalog is no longer available, I talked the curator in to finding one for me and he kindly did (should arrive this week). It is interesting that we know so much about Yabu Meizan but virtually nothing about the other Meizan and they worked in a similar time line. Here is what Yabu looked like:
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Cheers – John

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Howard Reed (Reedh)
Golden Pheasant
Username: Reedh

Post Number: 979
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: gpsspt1.dnr.nsw.gov.au

Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 – 02:59 am:

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Hi John and all,

it will be interesting to see what the cattle dog (er, catalogue) has to say about Meizan marks.

Having had more time to study and ruminate over the various photos, I haven’t changed my mind. It still looks to be a Satsuma vase (as marked!) done in what is very much a Kutani-influenced style. The cracked ice border seems okay in this regard also.

I agree that the decoration has some intriguing features. The first is the perfection of the black outlining. It does rather suggest that stencils were used, although I suspect we will find that this was a lot more commonplace than we realise (if Yabu Meizan was doing it, I can’t see why the huge commercial studio of Kinkozan would have refrained). Stencils to me argue in favour of Japanese production, rather than Chinese, particularly if the date is agreed as early.

Secondly, as Hans has pointed out – the ripples and shrinkage cracks in some of the solid enamel decoration. It does look like shrinkage. And I have never seen this in “hard” enamels. That hot pin test should determine whether they are acrylic or polymer in nature. But then, I really can’t see the Chinese using polymers around 1990 either.

At this stage, we have 3 opinions:

- Japanese and of the period 1910-25
- Chinese copy and of the period circa 1910-25
- Chinese copy, circa 1990.

Where to from here?

Howard

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John Wocher (Johninjapan)
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Post Number: 3206
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 210.162.146.228

Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 – 03:10 am:

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Hi Howard, not sure – Hot pin test tonight or tomorrow. Georges Bouvier arrives in about an hour and the Champagne is chilled. We will gulp some Daiginjo afterwards, pound down some beers, open a 1990 Chateau Margaux and increase our IQ by several points and ponder the possible Kutani origin of this vase. If imitation is the best form of flattery, why does Meizan stand in the very dark shadow of Yabu Meizan? Is it possible the pundits are wrong, and they are one and the same…? Well, off to pick up Georges at the train station and hit a few local antique haunts!
Cheers!
John

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Dean R Kelly (Gatorq)
Silver Pheasant
Username: Gatorq

Post Number: 71
Registered: 03-2006
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Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 – 06:18 am:

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John,
I am champing at the bit (southern USA term) to hear what you found out about your vase. Anything of note from your get together with Georges?
I have followed this thread with fascination as you dig up information and do a methodical review of this lovely vase. Thanks to all for sharing their insight.
Regards,
Dean

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Hans Slager (Hansenclair)
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Post Number: 2582
Registered: 04-2003
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Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 – 01:52 pm:

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Hi John, all

I tried the hot needle test on a restored piece on which regular paint was used to decorate the restored areas. I found I couldn’t burn a hole in the paint presumably because the heat holding capacity of the needle-tip is too low and the contact area is small. Likely a bigger object than a needle is necessary to get the job done.

I have been looking at the vase a dozen times and still don’t get a good feel for it. Sorry.

1. As said I just don’t understand several phenomena of the ‘enamels’ which is most worrying.
2. On a highly detailed vase like this why are the marks so poorly positioned to eachother ?
3. I find the male duck out of proportion (slightly too long a body); it really could/should have been done better. The Japanese were masters in realistic drawing of natural objects.
4. The wisteria leaves, very common on Japanese porcelain, are not very well drawn either. Lee’s vase is much better and classic in style.

Nevertheless it remains a pleasure to look at but these are my criticisms.

Cheers and have a great time with Georges !
Hans

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John Wocher (Johninjapan)
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Post Number: 3213
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Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 – 05:50 am:

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Greetings -
Probably the last word (but without resolution). I tried the hot pointed object on three points where I thought it may be undetected. At each point a very tiny black mark was left, which almost rubbed completely off, but it was like touching glass – very hard, even with some mild pressure. Georges looked at it when he was here, but I don’t feel he felt it was of Kutani origin, but we didn’t spend much time looking at it. Agree mark placement not usual, but have not seen many Meizan marks to conclude unlikely though, but concur odd. Thanks to all who contributed. My conclusion, a Satsuma-like vase of good quality with an atypical Meizan mark for which precise origin and dating is not yet established, but with an appraisal dating it 1910 – 1925 Satsuma of Japanese origin, marked Meizan.
Double Cheers,
John

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Paul Seno (Paulseno)
Peacock
Username: Paulseno

Post Number: 329
Registered: 03-2006
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Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 – 10:48 am:

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Hi John, I tend to agree with you except that I think it dates to the 1930′s.
Regards
Paul

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]]> By: Ed Hicks http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-14394 Ed Hicks Mon, 10 May 2010 22:19:10 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-14394 A Satsuma vase. Hello, If possible I would like to know more about the vase with rooster shown here...size, age, maker, details, etc. It is striking and appears to be of larger size. Ed A Satsuma vase.
Hello, If possible I would like to know more about the vase with rooster shown here…size, age, maker, details, etc. It is striking and appears to be of larger size. Ed

]]> By: Ongelia Hughes http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-9770 Ongelia Hughes Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:42:00 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-9770 Good Morning! I finally got the nerve to just leave a small note on how important the pieces my great grandmother left me were,she was stationed in Japan on her voluntary duty that she peformed during the war and she would talk to us at great length about how important what she did and I really had know idea until I became older that it was so much history behind it all.My Great Grandmother was the first Black Wac that volunteered and I am so very proud of all that was told to me and how much she acheived back then so when I started researching I am discovering so much more so your pieces make me think more and more about her and what she contributed to it all. Thanking you in advance for listening! Ongelia Hughes for my Great Grandmother Ella James of Centralia Illinois Good Morning!

I finally got the nerve to just leave a small note on how important the pieces my great grandmother left me were,she was stationed in Japan on her voluntary duty that she peformed during the war and she would talk to us at great length about how important what she did and I really had know idea until I became older that it was so much history behind it all.My Great Grandmother was the first Black Wac that volunteered and I am so very proud of all that was told to me and how much she acheived back then so when I started researching I am discovering so much more so your pieces make me think more and more about her and what she contributed to it all.

Thanking you in advance for listening!

Ongelia Hughes for my Great Grandmother Ella James of Centralia Illinois

]]> By: Dave http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-9293 Dave Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:21:29 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-9293 Hello Dean, Thanks for your comment. John has a great collection. I have learned a lot from him. Dave Hello Dean,
Thanks for your comment.
John has a great collection. I have learned a lot from him.
Dave

]]> By: Dean Kelly http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-9283 Dean Kelly Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:40:52 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-9283 David, That was a fascinating interview. It was enlightening to get the perspective of a collector such as John Wocher, who has put together such a good collection of Japanese antiques. As a dealer, I don't always keep in mind the "plan" of the collector and it is helpful to be be reminded. Dean Kelly David,

That was a fascinating interview. It was enlightening to get the perspective of a collector such as John Wocher, who has put together such a good collection of Japanese antiques. As a dealer, I don’t always keep in mind the “plan” of the collector and it is helpful to be be reminded.

Dean Kelly

]]> By: terry ashley http://www.worthpoint.com/article/25-year-journey-collecting-japanese-ceramics/comment-page-1#comment-9282 terry ashley Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:39:29 +0000 http://www.worthpoint.com/?p=2490034#comment-9282 how does one find the value of large hakata doll collection how does one find the value of large hakata doll collection

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